Aleksandra Zuraw: So I was posting another podcast episode on Instagram and there was this comment from the company Skoped Micro, and I’m like Skoped Micro? I have never heard of Skoped Micro. Let me check it out because I need to check out all the digital pathology things that are out there. So I check it out. And I see there is a case for smartphones that you can attach for microscopes on this webpage. So I’m thinking, wow, this is digital pathology for everyone. This is not just for institutions. This is not just for labs who have a budget to buy something for slide digitization. This is for everyone. So I wrote back, and this is how we started talking with Cade. And the here he is, he is the partner at Skoped Micro, and he is my guest today. Hi, Cade, how are you?
[INTRO]
[00:01:21] Aleksandra Zuraw: Hi everyone. Today my guest is Cade Wilson. Hi, Cade, how are you?
[00:01:31] Cade Wilson: I’m wonderful. How are you?
[00:01:33] Aleksandra: Good. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. And we start with yourself, let’s start and tell the listeners, what’s your background and tell us about the story with the Skoped Micro. How did this happen?
[00:01:48] Cade: Well, I’m excited. I can remember posting on that site you’re talking about, and I was just, you came into my life. I saw that and I was reading what you had going on. And I found it interesting and I thought I made a comment and here we are. And so it’s pretty exciting. It’s actually amazing to me how social media connects people. And I’ve made so many friends, literally around the world with social media. It’s really insane, but a little bit about Cade Wilson. So I’m a veterinarian by trade. I own and operate a three doctor veterinary practice in Southern Oklahoma. I’m a practicing veterinarian. That’s my background. At Skoped Micro it’s, it’s been a winding trail. I love the outdoors and you and I have talked about that before. And this weird adventure starts with a trip with my brothers and dad to Colorado to look at some wildlife. And I purchased a phone case to be able to film water wildlife through my phone. And so that’s where this story starts.
[00:03:05] Aleksandra: So it has nothing to do with microscopes or pathology?
[00:03:08] Cade: It has nothing to do with microscopes.
[00:03:10] Aleksandra: You hunting with your family?
[00:03:12] Cade: I was in the woods with my family, correct. And I am not very nice to equipment. And so when I was looking for something I wanted, there’s a couple of different avenues you can do for that. I wanted something that was tough and could live through living with Cade Wilson. And so I ended up purchasing a Phone Skope case, an adapter for my optics for this trip. And so I went out, had a great time with my family and I was driving from Western Colorado to Oklahoma, which is a pretty good drive by the way. And it gave me a lot of time to think. And during that drive, I was looking at this phone case and trying to figure out what I was going to do with it for the rest of my life since it was going to live in a drawer.
[00:04:01] But it dawned on me that no, I don’t look through binoculars or a spotting scope every day, but I do look through my microscope every day, dozens of times a day. And I probably use the microscope more than your average normal practitioner. I love microbiology. I love intestinal parasite, looking for those. I do a lot of in-house cytology. And so I thought, Hmm, how can I utilize this? And so there wasn’t an attachment for a microscope, but I worked my way through school as a carpenter for awhile. So I thought, I bet I can make something. And so I made that first attachment for me. Totally for me. I didn’t have anybody else in the world in my mind.
[00:04:47] Aleksandra: How did you make it? Out of wood?
[00:04:50] Cade: I took a little bit. It was that… I wish I still had it. But it was, I cut apart the attachment for my spotting scope, a little bit of wood, a little bit of glue, and I had an adapter. And again, it was totally for me, it was so self-serving I had… The rest of the world, I was not thinking about
[00:05:15] Aleksandra: When was that? How long ago was that?
[00:05:18] Cade: So that would have been 2015
[00:05:21] Aleksandra: Ok
[00:05:22] Cade: Five and a half, six years ago. And what I was trying to achieve that early on was I did a lot of cytology that I was going to follow up on, ear cytology, ear infections. And I don’t care how good you write your notes, a picture is so much better if I’m going to follow up 3, 4, 5, 6 weeks later. And so I would print out, I’d take a picture with my smartphone, print it out on my air printer, put it in a paper file. If when I came back that recheck, I’d jot some notes down and then I could not only show myself how we improved. I got to where I could show the client and it became a real situation for them. As time ticked along, I found new and improved things to do with it. You know, I’d have a technician that missed an intestinal parasite egg, or I would have a teachable moment with somebody in my office or a client would come in and we’re talking about a melanoma case or a cancer case.
[00:06:27] And I could bring them back, either, bring them up to the microscope, which I like to do and show them what I was seeing and making that real. And that was so amazing because people love microscopes. If you’re not used to looking at… People love looking through a microscope. And so instead of myself looking through the binocular vision and then trying to tell them, do you see the little purple thing or you see the thing to the right? And I don’t know how many times you’ve had people do that, but people will say yes and they don’t see anything, they have no idea what you’re talking about. But if I’ve got my smartphone attached and we’re looking at a little TV screen, I know you see what I’m looking at, and I can do a better job as a teacher in explaining the problem.
[00:07:24] And then having them help me fix that problem, because now they know it’s real. Then there was social media posts on my clinic social media, Instagram, Facebook, one of my closest friends on earth, Dr. Ron Tyler is a pathologist in south Texas. And he’s been my friend since the first day of veterinary school. I was lucky enough to pick the seat beside him. And I have a friend for life because of that chair I chose. Well, he’s my pathologist. And so we started doing some pathology right through my phone in real time. And that was the day I thought, you know what? I’m doing a lot with this.
[00:08:12] Aleksandra: And it was still with this half wooden half glued case of yours that you made for yourself?
[00:08:18] Cade: Pretty much. Yeah. I had updated it by attached a little bit, but it still was for lack of a better word. It was pretty redneck. It was a pretty redneck attachment. And to tie this back around to social media, one day I was on there and Phone Skope as a corporation came up as a potential follow-up. And I found that interesting because I had been using this product for years by now. And I thought, well, that’s interesting. Let’s see what else they’ve got going on. Well, guess what? It’s all wildlife. It’s all outdoors. They’re an outdoor company. Of course it would be. But it, it was shocking to me that there was nothing else. That was it.
[00:09:03] And so I thought through all the things that I did in my everyday life and how it had helped me and helped my patients and help my clients. And so I sent them a message and I just said, here’s who I am. Here’s what I do. Here’s all the things I’ve done off your radar. And I think it’s something you should look into. So they messaged me back and they wanted to talk. And so we visited the next day and we talked through how it would help and blah, blah, blah. And at the end of that conversation, they asked: Well, how do you want to be involved?
[00:09:40] Aleksandra: You reached out to a company to a corporation that just does those phone cases for different type, for hunting equipment. You said what you do with it. And they tell you, oh, how would you like to be involved?
[00:09:53] Cade: They did. And I said, I don’t. I don’t want to be involved because I told them, I said, I own a business. I am a practicing veterinarian in my own business. I’m a father and I’m married. And I would like to stay married. And I did not see where these hours would come from. I just told them good luck. And a little time goes by and I get a phone call back. And they said, we really think we have something, you have an idea.
[00:10:23] And I think it would be more successful with you involved. So I said, let’s just see what happens. It was slow going at first. But once the ball started rolling, it became pretty evident that we had an idea that could help a lot of people. The other thing on that very first trip. I love those guys. They are my family there now. And one of them said something they’re like, Hey, dream big. And I found it ironic, cause that’s what I do. I dream big. And they said now that we have this idea for hard goods actually at an adapter and we already have a phone case, it’s the same case that you’re going to use for the outdoors. We just have to make a different adapter. The idea was what kind of software could make life better. And so we’ll get back into that later on, but that started the application and the process of the app that we’re going to have out there and all the little things that has come down the road since.
[00:11:33] But that’s the shortest story I can tell you about how we got to this point, but it’s been very interesting in the last five and a half years of development and partnerships and reaching out and meeting people around the world. And it’s pretty amazing what we’ve done. And it’s even more amazing the thoughts I have where we can bring things like digital pathology to anybody. You don’t have to have a multiple thousand dollar microscope. You can have a really good Amazon microscope and I can make it as good as anything with what we’ve got.
[00:12:10] Aleksandra: So basically this opens the door. So you and I are both veterinarians. I used to practice before I became a pathologist. So this gives access to digital pathology, to anyone that has a microscope. It doesn’t even need to be a practicing professional. It can be a hobby person who likes that. We have the case that this adapted from outdoor equipment. So it’s robust. And you said you’re working, or you’re already done with the app. Tell us a little bit more about the application that goes with this case.
[00:12:44] Cade: Yeah, we are done with app. I actually was texting with our app guys this morning about where we’re at and we are literally days away for being viable to have it on all the app stores that we normally would have. And initially we’re going to run our beta tests. We need to know if there are problems that we can solve.
[00:13:04] The idea is a couple of things. Number one, if you’re able to take pictures and video, which your phone can already do.
[00:13:13] Aleksandra: Yeah. So that’s what I wanted to say. You basically don’t need the app if you want to take advantage and you didn’t have it because when you made it, you had the DIY version of it. You were just sharing it through. I don’t know, you can use WhatsApp. You can use text messages. You want to use, you just have a case.
[00:13:32] Cade: And adapter that would replace your eye piece on your microscope with our adapter. So that just plugs right in to your standard microscope.
[00:13:41] Aleksandra: And I’m going to include pictures of this and a link to a video, how this looks and how it works in the show notes later.
[00:13:50] Cade: And I also think that we can put on there, our website address
[00:13:54] Aleksandra: Definitely this all is going to be in the show notes so that anybody who is interested in that, and also your, the website of your clinic, if somebody is in their region, we put the link there as well.
[00:14:07] Cade: Of course. Perfect. So anybody can take pictures of video without the app. But one of my first meetings after joining the Phone Skope family before Skoped Micro was even a thought was I went and talked to the pathologist and the parasitologist that taught me, because I wouldn’t love this stuff or understand it without them. And so I went and had a meeting with them and I’m pretty sure that they humored me with this meeting at first. I’m sure I got a meeting because it was me not because of what I was asking. But what I was wondering, I knew what would help me from an invention standpoint, it’s nice to be the person you’re inventing for, because I know the questions that I’m trying to solve. But I knew there was question I didn’t even know to ask. And so I reached out to them and my pathologists that taught me, one of the things he wanted to know is how he could better teach through a microscope.
[00:15:14] He had always wanted to be able to literally video how he would attack a slide, how he would go through it. And there was no really good way because even his, even his microscope that had a camera system, the video function was just stitching together pictures. It wasn’t a very good video, but everybody has a computer in their pocket and you can video really well through a phone. And so that, that blew him away. And then my parasitologist. His biggest complaint was that people take pictures and send videos all the time to these guys, but there’s no good scale. There’s no way to say, well, how big is that parasite egg? Is that a parasite from a, from a pet or is that, does that something just from the grass? And so being able to show a scale was very important to him.
[00:16:12] And so off, we went trying to solve these new problems. And so that’s where our two biggest things on app started. We started trying to figure out how to accurately produce a micrometer that can not only be used, by the person on the phone, but also could be videoed or seen from another function. So that’s what we’ve worked really hard on to get something that’s not only accurate from my phone, but I can also correct it and make it accurate for your phone or anybody else’s. So we do have a built in micrometer function that is shown on a screen recorder.
[00:16:52] Also, as much as we all did not like COVID. And as much as we all did not enjoy zoom meetings. Now this is my favorite zoom meeting ever by the way. But as much as I didn’t like zoom meetings, it taught me that you can’t always be somewhere. You can’t always take that thing to be in person. And so we have built in an ability to share our screen with you like it’s on my microscope, you and I could be looking at it real time and talking about, and you could tell me where to move, to help you as a pathologist and me being just a normal practitioner. So we had a one-on-one function where we both can talk.
[00:17:33] Aleksandra: You have like teleconferencing on this app to teleconference through the microscope. So like microscope screen-sharing, microscope stage sharing. So to say.
[00:17:45] Cade: Correct. And then we also have a function where I can share my screen and be the instructor to as many screens as I want to around the world. So, it’s a one-to-many function. And the idea there is we’re not wanting you to speak back to us, but we’re wanting to be able to educate through that app. So we didn’t want there to be 50 people trying to talk at that time. So, the one-to-many is, I’m the one that’s able to talk. And then whoever is observing is there to just observe. So it’s more of a teachable function.
[00:18:22] Aleksandra: If you want to give a course, if you want to give a workshop, if your students are learning remotely, you just stick the phone with your case into your microscope, you drive and you show what you see under the microscope.
[00:18:37] Cade: Correct. It would be under my microscope and you could be sitting anywhere and just learning through that microscope. And so you know, as a son and a grandson of educators, teaching’s in my blood too. And so however I can help propel that. I know when I was at school, I don’t know about you, but I bet you the same. There was a multiple headed microscope.
[00:19:01] Aleksandra: Yes. We still have them in labs.
[00:19:04] Cade: Yes. I know there is a where I was at school. There’s one instructor and there’s eight people or so that could sit around. There’s a lot of people in those classes.
[00:19:14] Aleksandra: More than eight, definitely.
[00:19:16] Cade: And that instructor then has to sell the same thing a dozen times. And so this would allow, in this case, we could have this app on a microscope. We could actually set it up to a smart board, and you could teach the whole class at one time.
[00:19:32] Aleksandra: So what do I do to see what’s your under your microscope? I just download the app on my phone and we connect? How does that work?
[00:19:40] Cade: Yes, that would be correct. So what you would do is you would download the app on your smartphone when you start recording, so you’ll hit the little broadcast button. It’ll show a code, just like a zoom meeting. You’ll take the code, you cut, you just, there’s a little button, you push the button and it copies that. And then you would just text or email out that code. That person would then copy the code, stick it in their app, hit audience and their in. And so you could do it in about 15 seconds.
[00:20:10] Aleksandra: Fantastic. So I’m going to test it and make a video about it and post it to my channels as well, so that everybody knows how it works and how I’m working with it. And obviously you have a lot of informational materials on your channels. So I’m going to share that in the show notes.
[00:20:29] Cade: The one thing we’ve also done is we’ve made a YouTube channel and we’ve started trying to answer all these questions. So people can just go there and watch a short video, a couple minutes at most on how do you do all these things just to make just this, just to ramp up everybody’s learning curve and to make it as easy as humanly possible.
[00:20:52] Aleksandra: Who do you think is going to want that? Who are, who are your customers at the moment, who do you talk to and already know that they want it and they’re taking it. I’m taking it.
[00:21:05] Cade: Everybody. But the one thing, when I was especially all of this equipment, I never wanted to pigeonhole ourselves into this is our market. You know, I didn’t want to say, wow, this is a veterinary device. Or this is a digital pathology device. Literally anybody that has a microscope is our market. Period. This is not just can digital pathologists use this? Yes. It’s very helpful. It shrinks the world even smaller than we’ve already shrunk it. Would this have a high school biology teacher teach a class? Yes. Would this help an oil and gas person trying to decide if this is the right place to drill a well, yes. Literally anybody that has a microscope is on our radar. And as we learn more about how people do what they do, it’s anybody with a microscope, that’s our market. We’re really early we finally just went ahead and decided we’re going to form a whole separate business. That’s how Skoped Micro came about.
[00:22:13] Aleksandra: So it branched out of the parent company.
[00:22:16] Cade: We are sisters to Phone Skope now under the same umbrella, but it just seems, it just seemed right that we needed to just chase this whichever way it was going to go. And the opportunities and the ideas are limitless. The more we sit around and think we’re like, well, they used a microscope and you didn’t even think about it. Right now we’re really at the very beginning of this. I know I’m five and a half years in, but we are just now launching all of this after five years of development. So our website will be done in the next few days.
[00:22:53] Aleksandra: This is amazing as well. This is a phone case, five years of development for a phone case adapter to make it a good product. This is…
[00:23:04] Cade: We’ve put, I’ve put for sure, a lot of ideas and thought and prayer and just making sure it is tough. It’s got to live in somebody’s drawer and I wanted to live there and work well. I have not broke one of these yet. That is enough for me. I break everything. And so I have never broken any of these equipment, the app, COVID slowed us down a little bit, but it actually helped us in the end because it gave us some other ideas that we would not have had. It’s also gave us some time to play with some things. We worked with some AI. And I know we were going to talk about this later on, and I don’t think we’ve talked about that at all, but it gave us some time to work with some artificial intelligence. See, could we do some things?
[00:23:55] And we proved that we could in fact use some artificial intelligence. And as we decided, should we chase that or not? My thought is we’ve proved we can do it. Let’s find people that do that well and make partnerships with them. And how, again, just like the digital pathology. This is going to bring digital pathology to anybody that wants it. Period. This could also bring artificial intelligence to anybody that wants it. What we were doing early on was we were taking the intestinal parasites hooks, rounds coccidia, giardia, and proving that our system, we could actually diagnose with AI. And we did a pretty good job. We were in the upper nineties in proving that, but then you start thinking about, or I started thinking about all the different parasites there are, all the different cellularity things that there are, and there’s not enough hours in the day for us to do that, but there’s people that already do that.
[00:24:56] And so how can we bring what they’ve already done to a bigger table to more people? And so that’s one of the things that’s on my radar. I’ve got a couple of digital pathologists, one in particular that we’re going to partner with and try to help grow that business. I have a couple of big labs that we’ve talked to that are really, really excited about the potential and they have two different totally ideas, which is exciting. And then I’ve talked to a couple of veterinary companies that have some ideas as far as how they can help us and we can help them.
[00:25:32] Aleksandra: So you’re sure trying to launch it big and you’re thinking big, but you have a big audience that can benefit from that. And speaking of the technical details, is this case compatible with each phone and each microscope, or how does that work?
[00:25:51] Cade: That’s a great question. So we make phone cases, custom cases that will snap right on your phone for a lot, If not the majority of phones made out there. There are a few that we haven’t made them. Yours was one of them. When we first started speaking. And so we’ve decided to bring that phone case into the fold. So we’re 3D printing yours as we speak. So that’s going to be interesting. But we have custom cases. We also have a universal attachment, which is what I’ve started you out with. And you have. It’s not my favorite thing in the world, but it works. I like the custom cases just for this ease and the speed.
[00:26:35] In my work, I’ve got so many minutes to help that client. I don’t want to be fumbling around with anything. So snap it right into my phone. I can do the pathology right then. And then I can get back in the room. Most microscopes are the eye pieces. So our attachment is replacing that eyepiece. And so there are two different size microscopes. You have 23 millimeter eye pieces that’s your standard microscope, and then you have 30 millimeter microscopes. That’s more of a research grade type microscope.
[00:27:09] Aleksandra: That’s what I use. That’s what pathologists use.
[00:27:12] Cade: Correct. And most do. Most veterinarians like myself, you’re going to have a smaller one. And most digital pathologists like yourself is going to have a bigger one. We produced both sizes. We have both of those. And so that’s very easy to pick out and on our YouTube channel, it shows how to pick that up. And that’s the biggest. Knowing what size phone you have, what type and knowing which one of the two adapters you need. That’s what we have. And between those phone case options and the different options for the microscope that will fit everybody’s needs.
[00:27:50] Aleksandra: This is fantastic because it’s something, there are so few digital pathology products, and I’m following this niche because this is my passion. That is something that I can buy for myself. And I was so happy to see something that, you know, everyone can buy. The smallest slide digitizing devices are thousands of dollars and this is a normal price range. Can you tell what price range it’s going to be?
[00:28:23] Cade: Yes. The price range is going to be somewhere right around or just below $200 for a phone case and the eye piece so that you’re be in business for that.
[00:28:32] Aleksandra: Fantastic. Yeah. So I don’t know if there’s any device like that for this price.
[00:28:39] Cade: There are other companies out there that produce similar ways to attach your microscope to your phone. And if you Google it, you’ll find several. And I have now played with or held in my hand, every one of these, because you need to know your competition. And once I establish what our competition was and all the little ways that people try to take a good picture, that aren’t any of those, we had no competition because our product is so durable and so easy to use. There was there’s nobody that is in our range, as far as what we can bring to the table.
[00:29:27] Aleksandra: I tried one of these, obviously at some point I bought on Amazon and it ended up in my drawer. It was too cumbersome to put on, on the phone and then attaching it to the microscope. It was just too much hassle for, it was too disruptive to my daily routine and provided not enough value for me to keep using it.
[00:29:49] Cade: It takes too much time. And that’s what was upsetting to me. When I started doing it, I wanted to be able to snap my phone in it and put it on the microscope, which takes me no time at all. And then be able to take it right back off and go back to my normal life. Literally, I do it without thinking anymore. Cause it’s just so easy. Our newer cases that we’re making now there’s a little piece of plastic that attaches the microscope adapter to the phone case. And so you actually could take that off and our cases would be everyday cases then. Your phone could literally just live in it.
[00:30:27] Aleksandra: I want that. I want that.
[00:30:30] Cade: We’ll have to get that after they’re 3D printed.
[00:30:33] Aleksandra: Oh okay. Or I just buy a new phone.
[00:30:36] Cade: There you go. There you go. But yes, we have now phone cases that can be everyday carry cases. Then you need to just snap your adapter right on.
[00:30:48] Aleksandra: Oh my goodness. I love it. I tried it. I love it. I’m waiting for the 3D printed one. And then I’m going to be waiting for the one that my phone can just live in because this simplicity makes a difference. Makes people use it. If you are busy doing something fast and you have to add time to it, that does not provide enough value. You’re just not going to be using it. And it kind of blocks you from tapping into everybody else’s expertise, because you sure have friends who have different expertise who can help you in that very moment. But if it takes you half an hour to mount it, then it’s like, okay, it’s not worth it. Not worth your time. Not worth their time. So yes. And we talked and I will be a proud affiliate of this phone case. So I will also include later an affiliate link for the case. I love it. I’m super happy you developed it.
[00:31:49] Cade: You are. Like you said, you said it very plainly and I liked the way you word it. If it’s going to take time, it’s not going to add value. It doesn’t matter what it costs. You could, I could give it to you if it’s not going to help you. You’re not going to use it.
[00:32:03] Aleksandra: I have the other one. I just don’t use it.
[00:32:06] Cade: Yeah. I, like I said, I’m a practicing veterinarian in my own veterinary hospital that is very busy. And I’m going to say I put it on my microscope five to 10 times a day. Is what I would probably put it on and off. You know, if I’m going to see, let’s say I see 30 cases a day, which is probably pretty accurate, there’s probably a third of those that are going to need some sort of, fine needle aspirate or an ear cytology, or I do a lot of reproductions. So we’ll do some semen samples and just check motility. As we’ve gone, now we’re transitioning from paper to paperless in my practice, which, oh my gosh, that’s given me headache. I can now take that little video clip and just drop it in that electronic file. And that way, any time there’s ever a question, we can wrap back and there it is.
[00:32:57] Or if I’m going to share that with a specialist and I’m sending it up the ladder, they could see exactly what I’ve seen. Just like I would send them a digital x-ray. I can send them my digital pathology. My cytology right then. It’s been every time I do it say the first question I get is how did you do that? Like, how did you send me that? And it’s pretty neat to say, well, it’s something I’ve been working on. And I’m so excited to, I was so excited to share the app with you just the other day, because you were the first person outside by circle to use it and to hear you experience it, it was so awesome. To see what I’ve come up with. It was so awesome that you were like, wow. And that’s amazing to me.
[00:33:44] Aleksandra: I love it. And I’m so glad you have it on the market. Really. Like I said, one of the few things that can bring digital pathology into everybody’s office, everybody who uses a microscope, thank you so much, Cade, for letting us know about this. And I’m going to be honest here. I’m going to promote the heck out of it because I think it’s a great. It’s going to really, everybody wants to democratize digital pathology, and with the price point of digital pathology devices as it is now, because these are highly technical devices. It’s not possible because there are so many people in the world that just cannot afford it. This you can afford, even if it is expensive for some people, this is like, let’s say in different countries, not in the Western countries, it may be expensive. You can still save for this. You cannot save on your own for a $200,000 slide scanner, but this you can get, and everybody already has a smartphone. So thanks so much. Thanks so much for being my guest. And thanks so much for developing this, even though you didn’t want in the first place.
[00:34:58] Cade: Well, it’s not that I didn’t want to, but I just didn’t want to take away from the jobs that I needed to do. And it became, it’s been very amazing to me that the hours that I’ve needed to do this, they were provided to me. And I didn’t ask for them. I’m still, I’m a busier veterinarian than I was that day. I am as good a dad and baseball coach as I was that day. And I think I’m as good as husband. I’m going to ask my wife, but I’m pretty sure I’m still as good a husband that I was that day. And so I asked for hours to be added to my life and, and God has provided that to me.
[00:35:36] Aleksandra: I guess it was just meant to be.
[00:35:40] Cade: I think so.
[00:35:41] Aleksandra: Thanks so much. Thanks for being my guest. And you have a great day.
[00:35:45] Cade: You too. Thank you so much.
